Geranium clarkei Yeo, Hardy Geraniums 188 1985. (Syn: Geranium kashmirianum Sapru & Raina);
Geranium pratense from Kashmir: Geranium pratense L., Sp. Pl. 2: 681. 1753.
A species very similar in appearance to G. wallichianum but very easily differentiated by very narrow linear stipules, 5-7 lobed leaves more deeply divided, each segment narrower, narrowest towards tip and gradually broader towards base with 6-13 acutish lobes, and narrowed suddenly below the lowest pairs of lobes. the species is now considerd closer to G. himalense but latter has smaller leaves, broader segments with lobes concentrated in upper with 5-7 lobes, mostly lobed again.
Flora of Pakistan considers Himalayan form as subsp. stewartianum, but this taxon is not accepted in light of variation within the species.
Photographed from Gulmarg, kashmir.
I currently cannot put a firm name on this – shall comment further in due course. I do consider it is part of the G.collinum-pratense-himalayense
I do have some images of Geranium pratense taken in the UK earlier this year which it might be worthwhile me posting for comparison purposes – accepting that Nasir recognised subspecies stewartianum.
Let me try to explain. In the Notes Yeo supplied me, he draws attention to the problematical G.collinum-pratense-himalayense alliance. He considered this was particularly critical in the NW Himalaya with high quality pressed specimens needed (nowadays these can be supplemented and sometimes replaced by high quality digital images (provided the advice given below is followed). This alliance has pink to blue flowers (sometimes white) in which the stamen-tip and stigmas are never blackish-purple…
PHOTOGRAPHING GERANIUMS: IF only the first one or two flowers have come out don’t bother to collect as the form of inflorescence will not be evident.
I have photographed this species well in Kashmir. Do let me know if you want any enlarged portion for clear understanding.
I have not seen a copy of the description of Geranium clarkei nor have a copy of his book on Hardy Geraniums (the reason he had ‘Hardy’ in the title is that because in the UK gardeners often include non-hardy Pelargoniums, which interestingly often appear in window boxes in front of Swiss chalets but presumably, as in my country are brought inside to over-winter in a frost-free place, as well as true Geraniums).
There is a Hardy Geranium Group of the UK Hardy Plant Society – I have lectured at their AGM on two occasions about Himalayan geraniums.
Would be most useful if anyone who has a copy (or access to one) of Yeo’s description of Geranium clarkei could sent me a copy. This seems to have been published in ‘Hardy Geraniums’ (1985).
Meanwhile, see: http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K000729513 which is the Holotype collected by Clarke in Kashmir at ‘Harpoor’ 2400m. I note Yeo had previously determined this as Geranium pratense ‘Kashmir Form’ -was this the same as Geranium pratense susbp. stewartianum?
And what you understood to be Geranium pratense in Kashmir?
I note that the ‘Assessment of Geranium Diversity…’ you sent a link to includes G.clarkei but provides no synoyms. It includes Geranium himalayaense with G.pratense sensu FBI as a synonym but not G.pratense.
I have some images of what is now known in cultivation as G.clarkei ‘Kashmir White’ which I can find and post plus a form of G.pratense
growing wild in the UK, which I shall also post for comparison purposes.
Also took images of what I understand to be G.himalayense, growing in the garden here, still in flower (just) which I photographed at the same time as the images I posted yesterday of Geranium wallichianum. In the latter case, I can post a dozen or so images, showing the range of characteristics, which will be helpful.
In the mean-time, I draw your attention to cultivated forms of G.clarkei ‘Kashmir white’ (bearing in mind that not all images on the internet of this cultivar, other cultivated varieties belonging to all genera and species of all genera are correctly identified, indeed many are not and geraniums are prone to hybridise, which complicates matters further and this happens not just accidentally due to bees but actively due to gardeners deliberately crossing them):
these look OK to me.
And there is G.clarkei ‘Kashmir Purple’ see: link
Perhaps it may be too early to make general statement because eFlora of India, updated 2014 records both G. pratense (NW Himalayas, Pakistan, Nepal at altitude 3000-4500 m) and G. clakei (Endemic to Kashmir, 2100-4200 m), with well defined key and clear illustration of G. pretense with condensed flowers on short pedicels:
Agreed that most of my specimens may fit G. clarkei with pedicels clearly longer than calyx, immature fruits slightly nodding and flowers up to 48 mm across. We have to scrutinize all Himalayan specimens from NW Himalayas with compact infl. with pedicels shorter than calyx, slightly smaller up to 45 mm across flowers and reflexed immature fruits to fit into G. pratense.
At this stage it would be too early to discard G. kashmirianum, especially when both The Plant List and GRIN regard it as accepted name. I am trying to procure the original publication to decide and comment on distinguishing characters especially G. pratense. G. clarkei was published only one year earlier so authors may not have known about it when they sent their manuscript for publication.
I have been able to procure Image of holotype as well as original publication of G. kashmirianum. An interesting observation in publication sent in Dec. 1984, authors had thanked Prof. Yeo for going through the specimens and seems gave go ahead as new species, before he published his own G. clarkei in 1985.
Fwd: Geranium kashmirianum Sapru & Raina : 4 posts by 2 authors. No images.
Can someone tell me what this is? And send a description incl. how it is distinguished from other geraniums in Kashmir incl. which species it was mistaken for in the past?
Cannot locate any images of herbarium specimens or live plants.
It is an accepted name in ‘The Plant List’.
Strangely, it is not included in ‘An Assessment of Diversity of Genus Geranium… in India with Special Emphasis on Indian Himalayan Region’.
A glaring omission. What else is missing in this assessment, I wonder?
This is shown as a syn. of Geranium clarkei Yeo in Catalogue of Life.
Thanks for this information.
It is probably confirmed in ‘Hardy Geraniums’ by Yeo but as I said, I cannot afford to purchase a copy at this this time, to check.
There appears to be no mention of G.kashmirianum in ‘An Assessment of diversity of Genus Geranium… in India with Special Emphasis on Indian Himalayan Region’. G.clarkei is listed but given no synonyms which cannot be the case.
I have been told that GRIN shows both G.clarkei Yeo and G.kashmirianum Sapru & Raina as recorded from India.
One must always be aware that such records/ data-bases/ acceptance of names are largely based on literature searches not in any way revisions, first-hand knowledge, checking of type specimens in herbaria etc. And not necessarily undertaken by someone with specialist knowledge of the genera/ floras concerned.
Thus, they have limitations and must be treated with caution and not viewed as authoritative.
JUST AS ONE MUST RECOGNISE THAT ANY DATA-BASE IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE DATA THAT IS INPUT.
Misidentifications are widespread in check-lists all over the world, hence data-bases become “polluted”.
Just as numerous images on the internet of plant species are misidentified.
Balsaminaceae, Geraniaceae and Oxalidaceae Week: Geraniaceae-Geranium collinum from Kashmir-GS-19 : 4 images. 3 posts by 3 authors. Geranium collinum Steph. ex Willd., Sp. Pl. 3:705. 1800. Perennial herb up to 80 cm tall with elongated horizontal rhizome, stems ascending to erect with retrorse hairs and some spreading glandular hairs; stipules lanceolate, 6-8 mm long; leaves opposite, petiole up to 12 cm long in lower leaves, upper shorter; blade rounded, 2-8 cm broad,5-7 lobed to about middle, segments wedge-shaped further 3-5-lobed; flowers 25-30 mm across, lilac to lilac-purple, usually in 2-flowered cluster on up to 15 cm long ascending to recurved peduncle; pedicel up to 5 cm long; bracteoles linear-lanceolate; sepals 5-9 mm long, elliptic-oblong, with 1-2 mm long mucro, pubescent; petals 12-18 mm long, obovate, rounded to retuse at tip; filaments triangular and hairy at base; mericarps pubescent, with up to 2.5 cm long beak. Photographed from Khillenmarg, Kashmir, about 3000 m altitude
Thanks Sir for showing.. perhaps we also recorded this during VOF Tour, but I do not have “eligible” pictures.. that’s why only enjoying..
I currently cannot put a firm name on this – shall comment further in due course, though is often difficult with so little information to go on when only a small number of photos are taken. KINDLY NOTE THAT THE 4TH IMAGE DOES NOT TALLY WITH THE FIRST THREE (assuming the third image does represent the lower leaves of the first two) – the flower looks like a variant of Geranium wallichianum to me. This species has widely-varying flower colour. There is a form in cultivation in the UK known as ‘Buxton’s Variety (sometimes but incorrectly, as ‘Buxton’s Blue). A colleague of mine came across a variant similar to this on the Rohtang in 1989. G.wallichianum is recorded from up to 3300m, so may well be found on Khelanmarg (albeit towards its upper limit altitude-wise). The stipules are not shown in any of the photos, which in the case of G.wallichianum are usually diagnostic. It is not unknown to have more than one species of Geranium growing near to each other/ amongst each other, meaning care needs to be taken to distinguish between them.
Given that geraniums readily hybridise in cultivation one has to wonder about the possibility of hybrids when two geranium species meet in the wild? I have yet to see the possibility of hybrids mentioned in any postings on eFI in relation to possible identification of any genera (nor apomictic genera like Taraxacum). True, it is often hard enough to try and recognise which species a specimen belongs to, let alone consider hybrids!
Further to my recent post about photographing Geraniums. I am far from certain that the true Geranium collinum is found in the Himalaya. This is a complicated matter. Let me try to explain. It has certainly been thought to in the past. Stewart e.g. listed this species from the Khardong La in his ‘The Flora of Ladakh’ (1916-17) – I have not seen the pressed specimen but from the altitude and location, I would think this is probably what I understand to be G.regelii. He also listed G.grandiflorum (which is now Geranium himalayense). The images above do not come close to my understanding of either of these species – nor G.pratense subsp. stewartianum a specimen of which I saw near Sonamarg which Peter Yeo at Cambridge identified as this in 1987. Dickore & Klimes (2005) which is the most up-to-date checklist for Ladakh do not include G.collinum only G. himalayense, pratense, regelii and sibiricum.
In ‘The Valley of Flowers’ book G.pratense, collinum, wallichianum and grevilleanum (now G.lambertii) were listed.
In the Notes Yeo supplied me, he draws attention to the problematical G.collinum-pratense-himalayense alliance. He considered this was particularly critical in the NW Himalaya with high quality pressed specimens needed (nowadays these can be supplemented and sometimes replaced by high quality digital images (provided the advice given below is followed). This alliance has pink to blue flowers (sometimes white) in which the stamen-tip and stigmas are never blackish-purple…
Thanks a lot … for your very critical analysis. I assure you all images are from the same plant, I have even checked time of photography. Why it looks different to you I think is because it shows upper view of flowers, others lower view.
Fair enough but the main point is that the Geranium photographed at Khelamarg does not tally with what I understand to be G.lambertii.
Not sure if you have seen the images I sent of a form of this in cultivation in the UK – I will forward the images I sent to …
Whilst I agree that G.wallichianum is quite distinctive, more than one geranium can get mixed up and I still think this has happened in images posted taken in Uttarakhand.
I am getting tired now and need to get some sleep. I will provide a link to what I mean in the above paragraph and then forward the images of
Will also initially respond to your comment re: Geranium pratense.
Thanks but the main issue is what species this geranium is. I remain uncertain.
Are you familiar with Geranium kashmirianum? In another post I have requested a description of this (and ideally images) and how this is distinguished from other geraniums in Kashmir?
Are you familiar with G.kishtvariense and how this is distinguished from other geraniums in Kashmir.
Are you familiar with G.swatense and how it is disntiguished from other geraniums.
Until I am comfortable recognising all the geraniums recorded from Kashmir, shall struggle to be sure of images posted and whether many represent a taxon not previously recorded.
As it now appears that what was G.pratense in Kashmir is now G.clarkei? What about Geranium collinum?
Are you familiar with G.himalayense? Are you familiar with G.regelii?
I would welcome seeing any geraniums you have photographed in the NW Himalaya.
To me these images appear similar to those at Geranium pratense from Kashmir
After comparing images further, especially more finally dissected leaves, I think that this is G. clarkei (syn: G. kashmirianum).
Balsaminaceae, Geraniaceae and Oxalidaceae Week: Geraniaceae- Geranium pratense from Kashmir-GS-31 : 4 images. 2 posts by 2 authors.
Granium pratense from Kashmir
A large flowered species similar to himalayense and G. collinum in general appearance but 5-7 lobed smaller leaves, 3-5 cm across, with narrower segments which are narrowest at apex, narrowly ovate in shape, purple flowers fruiting pedicels erect in fruit, petals 15-20 mm long, fruit with beak less than 3.5 cm long.
Photographed from Gulmarg, Kashmir
A reply from … from another thread with the same images:
After further scrutiny of my other photographs from Gulmarg I have come to conclusion that this plant is G. clarkei Yeo (syn: G. kashmirianum Sapru and Raina) differing from G. pratense var. stewartianum in narrower leaf segments (Sapru and Raina; see also image B of G. pratense var. stewartiana in eFlora of Pakistan). Yeo also differentiates G. clarkei by young fruits being horizontal or drooping (young fruit upwardly inclined or erect in G. pratense var. stewartiana), and larger flowers with pink veins.
Here are more photographs from Gulmarg.