Common Thistle • Nepali: थकाल Thakal, Sungure kanda;


Cirsium sp?? — enroute Dhel at GHNP – PKA30 : 3 posts by 2 authors. Attachments (9).
Seen this Thistle {big herb ,1.5 to 2 m tallen-route Dhel at GHNP at an altitude of approx. 3600m.
Bot. name: Cirsium sp???
Family: Asteraceae
Date/Time: 28-09-2014 / 09:00AM

Cirsium– species in eFIoraofindia (with details/ keys from published papers/ regional floras/ FRLHT/ FOI/ efloras/ books etc., where ever available)

I hope C. verutum, like C. falconeri but leaves white tomentose beneath, smaller, not woolly

I think this is C. tibeticum (syn. of Cirsium argyracanthum DC. as per POWO) (specimen at POWO), found at higher elevation (above 3000 mtr. as per Nepal’s checklist, compared to 700-2200 mtr. for Cirsium verutum (D. Don) Spreng)

Cirsium verutum (D.Don) Spreng. as per discussions at Confusion between Circium argyracanthum and C. verutum

Only doubts are more sharply spiny leaves and absence of white underside

Leaf underside is white.


Confusion between Circium argyracanthum and C. verutum:
From the previous discussions, there seems to be Confusion between Circium argyracanthum and C. verutum.

Let us have a closer look at its nomenclature:

FBI from IBIS Flora:
Cnicus argyracanthus (DC.) C.B.Clarke (Stem cottony, leaves glabrous above cottony or glabrate beneath lobes and teeth strongly spinescent, radical petioled pinnatifid lobes rounded, cauline broader cordate amplexicaul, heads 3/4-1 in. diam, sessile densely fascicled involucrate, invol. bracts with woolly margins and long strong erect or spreading spines, innermost linear acuminate, corolla 1/2 in. white. Carduus argyracanthus, Wall. Cat. 2903.
TEMPERATE HIMALAYA, alt. 6-9000 ft., from Murree to Bhutan (excl. Sikkim).
A more slender plant than C. involucratus, with the leaves always glabrous above and much more numerous smaller and densely fascicled heads. Achenes 1/8 in. long ; pappus 1/2 in., nearly white.)Description above matches with specimens of C. argyracanthum (POWO)- onetwo
Cnicus involucratus Wall. ex DC. (Tall, stout, erect, leaves setulose above white-tomentose beneath teeth and lobes spinescent, radical petioled pinnate, segments lanceolate sinuate-lobed or toothed, cauline broader cordate-amplexicaul ovate or lanceolate pinnatifid, heads 1.1/2-2.1/2 in. diam, solitary or fascicled involucrate, invol. bracts glabrate all ending in slender erect or subrecurved spines or a few innermost linear acuminate, corolla 1 in. long. 
TEMPERATE HIMALAYA ; from Kashmir to Bhotan, alt. 8-12,000 ft.
Stem as thick below as the little finger, 2-6 ft. high, branched above. Leaves, radical a foot long, pinnatifid to the middle or deeper, or to the base with distant lobes. Heads inclined ; corolla glabrous. Achenes 1/5 in. long, obovoid-oblong, margins obtuse ; pappus 2/3 in., brown.—Western specimens of this have more rigid leaves, spinescent above, and longer stronger invol. spines than the Sikkim ones have. De Candolle describes the corollas as purple, which they appear to be when dry, but they are pale yellow-white when fresh. I have gathered in E. Nipal withered specimens of a plant like this, but with the leaves quite glabrous above and many rows of inner invol. bracts with soft reflexed flat wrinkled tips. I have also seen in Sikkim and the Khasia leaves supposed to belong to this species that are quite glabrous above.)
Description above matches with specimens of C. verutum (POWO)- one (C. involucratus of FBI) and two (C. involucratus of FBI), the following may be the real C.verutum:

Cirsium sp?? — enroute Dhel at GHNP – PKA30 (12000 ft.)

Cnicus wallichii (DC.) C.B.Clarke (DC. Prodr. vi. 643 (Cirsium) ; stem pubescent leafy, leaves sessile sinuate-pinnatifid lobes spinescent lobulate spines very long and strong glabrous above and beneath or cottony or tomentose beneath, heads 3/4-1.1/2 in. solitary and on naked peduncles or sessile fascicled and involucrate, outer invol. bracts lanceolate ending in appressed erect or recurved spines, inner with spreading or recurved more or less dilated, lanceolate or ovate spreading or recurved scarious serrulate acute or spinescent tips, corolla 2/3 in. long. C. carlinoides, Cass. var. B, Herb. Ind. Or. H. f. & T.TEMPERATE HIMALAYA ; from Marri to Bhotan, alt. 6-12,000 ft. NILGHERRY Mts., alt. 6000 ft.
An extremely variable plant, 4-10 ft. high, with spreading branches, which passes into C. argyracanthus through var. Wightiana in the Eastern Himalayas and the Nilgherries. The following varieties pass into one another in the most perplexing way. Corolla white, yellow or red (according to Clarke).)Cnicus wallichii var. nepalensis (DC.) Hook.f. (leaves white-tomentose beneath,heads peduncled, inner invol. tracts with broadly dilated scarious reflexed tips in many series more numerous than the outer spiniferous ones, sometimes occupying two thirds of the head. Cnicus arachnoides, Wall. Cat. 2891. C. Wallichii, Clarke Comp. Ind. 219. Cirsium nepalense, DC. Prodr. vi. 642.)GBIF specimen- one (Cnicus wallichii (DC.) C.B.Clarke), POWO specimen- one (Cnicus arachnoides Wall.) and two (Cnicus wallichii var. nepalensis (DC.) Hook.f.)

Flora of China
Cirsium verutum (D. Don) Sprengel syn: Cnicus verutus D. Don, Prodr. Fl. Nepal. 167. 1825; Cirsium involucratum Candolle, nom. illeg. superfl. (2900-3900 m.)
Cirsium argyracanthum Candolle syn: Cirsium tibeticum Kitamura; Cnicus argyracanthus (Candolle) C. B. Clarke (2100-3700 m.)
From the above analysis, I feel most our specimens from lower elevation may be of Cnicus argyracanthus (DC.) C.B.Clarke

If you agree with my analysis above, I will resurface old threads at Cirsium verutum with correct identification.

while comparing please keep Cirsium vulgare in mind. Although not listed in BSI Flora or FBI, the species is a weed naturalised in many parts of the world including India and Pakistan. The heads resemble C. verutum but leaves are narrower and not white beneath, involucre bracts although green like V. verutum, much more narrower and sharply pointed. and spreading.

I do not think we have any such post in efi so far as per images at POWO.

I am uploading just now



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